If you want to live in Italy legally and you are from outside of the European Union, like me, you too will have to do this.
Many Americans live here for years, illegally. I have recently met bunches of them. One man has been here for 40 years, has been happily employed as a cook for all this time, gets paid in cash, and apparently a fair amount because he lives in a gorgeous piazza. He said that once or twice, in all this time, he has been asked by someone in authority what he is doing in Rome, he says he is “writing a book about Italian food” and everyone starts shouting about which region has the best this or that…or their mothers.
The easy part is getting your visa from the Italian consulate in the States. Easy, that is, as long as you are extremely rich and do not need to work, and can prove it, or your American employer is sending you over there for work, or you are a student. If you are not married to an Italian, don’t have a trust fund and actually need to work, or are not enrolled in a university, heaven help you if you want to move there legally. That’s a whole other post. Anyway, once you’ve got it, you can go to Italy.
But, wait, you’re not done yet!
Within eight days of your arrival, you have to go to the post office, yes the post office, to pick up a “kit” for your permesso di soggiorno – permit of stay (hereinafter “permesso”). The first time I went to pick it up, the lady there said that the kits are only distributed before noon, even though I found out later it’s just a small notebook, the post office has stacks of them, and when I arrived at 12:30 there were a bunch of workers standing around. I’m pretty sure one of them could have reached down and handed me one. Anyway, fortunately, when I returned the next day before noon, the post office was open and kits were available. With the kit finally in hand, I do not know what I would have done if I did not speak fluent Italian. There were no instructions in English or any other common language
I filled it out, I took it back. Even though apparently a few months ago, the fee to drop off the kit was something like 60 euros, it had now jumped to 130 euros. When prices increase here, they often double. I paid, dropped off the kit and accompanying documents, and was immediately given an appointment a month and a half later in part of Rome that does not exist on anyone’s tourist map. That appointment was for the sole purpose of taking my fingerprints at a police station.
Six weeks passed. The fingerprinting day approached. I went get passport photos taken, which were required. There is no CVS or Wallgreen’s or Kinko’s here to take passport photos. Rather, one must go to an old-timey photo booth that one can still find in every subway stop. It cost 5 euros, which is a total rip-off, and then when I put in a ten euro note, it did not give me change. Spending money unnecessarily makes me crazy; getting robbed by that machine put me in a funk all the way to the police station.
An hour later, after two subways and a long bus ride and a little walk, I arrived at the middle-of-nowhere police station to which I had been dispatched. I believe it is where every foreigner must go, no matter the reason he or she is in Italy. My appointment was at 1:00. I arrived at 12:50.
Here is what I saw: A long “line” of people behind a barricade stretched out for many meters. It was hardly single file; it looked more like a giant palm leaf. To the right of the “line” was a kind of holding area with chairs. It was all outdoors but there was, thank goodness, a giant tent for shade. I asked the police officer who was guarding everything if the line was for people with 1:00 appointments. He said the line was for people with noon appointments. I have said it before and I will say it again, I do not know what people do in these situations if they do not speak Italian.
Everyone who had come for appointments later than noon were sent to the holding area. I sat down. I had had the forethought to bring a book, which must mean I am used to wildly long delays. All of a sudden, the police officer let all the noon people through, and he turned to the waiting area and called for anyone with a “1:00 or 1:30 appointment” to take their places. So, there ended up being no difference between having a 1:00 or 1:30 appointment. We were now equalized in the same line.
We would stand there for an hour. This poor guy was in front of me:
We were equalized in more ways than one. I am an American attorney. Many of these folks were migrant workers from places like Sri Lanka and Moldovia. We all had to stand in that hot hellhole, and we all had to wait. When some girl from who knows where tried to cut in front of me, I said “What do you think you are doing? We’re all going in at the same time.” I was really assertive about it; I must be becoming Italian. But she’s becoming even more Italian than I am, because she tried to cut the line in the first place.
A Chinese woman in a very pretty dress was struggling to communicate with the policeman tasked with wrangling us. Apparently she had gone to a post office, dropped off her kit, paid the small fortune required, and the post office person, rather than give her an appointment, just told her to go down to this here police station at her leisure. The policeman was telling her that it didn’t work that way. He said that “by law” the postal worker had to print out an appointment card for her at the moment she dropped off her kit, which was a true statement. The postal worker had apparently not done so, so the woman just came. She started crying. She had taken a day off of work, her children were at home, taken a hundred buses or something, all for nothing. Couldn’t he please just let her in the line and take her fingerprints? She begged in broken Italian, but I was so proud of her for doing so and making her point. The policeman said, no, it didn’t work that way. They wouldn’t be able to locate her kit even if she went inside. He told her to go back to the post office and have them give her an appointment, which by this time would be closer to Christmas “if not afterwards. We close for several weeks at Christmas.” The lady sat down in the waiting area, arms crossed, huffing and crying softly. I don’t know what she thought she could accomplish by just sitting there. I also don’t know what became of her. I felt awfully sorry for that poor lady.
Then, something extraordinary happened. I met one of the coolest, most interesting people in the world. She was a seventy-year old Italian lady named Mariantoinetta, with a dyed red ponytail and whiskers all over her face. She wore jeans and sneakers and some kind of flowing batik shirt. She was accompanying a young man from southwest Asia; I never asked her what their relationship was. I first heard her smoker’s voice behind me telling everyone in earshot that she was going to “have a nice cigarette” while we waited. Then, someone asked her if she were Italian. “NO!” she insisted. “I’m Roman!” I liked her immediately.
Then, she turned to me and told me I did the right thing by not letting that other girl cut in line. We had a laugh about it. She asked where I was from. “Ah, the United States? What’s it like there,” she asked.
“In what way,” I asked her.
“In every way. How expensive is it?”
“Well, it depends. It depends if you’re in New York, for example, or in Texas. I mean, you can get breakfast just about anywhere for four dollars.”
“Four dollars? At that point I’ll just bring my coffee machine from Italy and make breakfast myself.”
It was off to a great start. We talked for a long time about America. She wanted to know who I thought would win the presidential election. When I told her who I was certain would win, she said, “Good, I like him.” Mariantoinetta loves to travel. She travels often, to places like Cambodia and Vietnam. She has never been to the States but would like to. She wants to go there for several months and she asked if I knew of any English lessons she could take, anywhere in the country. She narrowed her eyes at me and said, “New York must be seen. Brooklyn must be seen. They are, themselves, works of art.” She almost always travels alone, because she says she has “no affectionate ties.” In August, however, *she* was “adopted” by a stray cat whom she cannot now abandon for a holiday.
We were finally, all at once, both 1:00 and 1:30 appointment holders, allowed in the police station. I went through a metal detector, was told I had to leave my helmet on the floor where a bunch of uniformed 18-year-olds were standing around doing nothing, and I marched up four flights of stairs.
I then checked in with a lady, who had in front of her a stack of permesso kits. Picture it: a lady at a table with all of our kits in a stack, containing our most personal information, as if she were distributing brochures at a conference. I told her my name, she thumbed through the stack, found the kit I had dropped off at the post office two months earlier, and she told me to take a seat in the room behind her.
Naturally, I thought I could just take any empty seat. It was a large, circular room with chairs lined against the walls. A couple of young military guys with pimples barked at me to take the first empty seat next to the last occupied seat. The person in line behind me then took the next empty seat at my side. What it was, was a giant game of musical chairs. The line wasn’t a line but a circle. When someone got to the “end” of the circle and went into the fingerprint room, every person had to stand up and shift over one seat. This happened about every sixty seconds for an hour.
At least I was next to Mariantoinetta. She told me about her engagement decades ago. A month before her wedding, she had to go to the emergency room and fell in love at first sight with her doctor. She never saw the doctor again but she knew that if she could fall in love at first sight with someone else, she shouldn’t get married. She never did get married. We talked a little about my love life and a lot about Rome. She told me the names of the streets where her mother and grandmother were born – to show me just how Roman she was. “Precisely Via Cola di Rienzo! And Via del Tritone!” She told me her father used to buy fresh fish on the street where I now live. She loves Rome.
She also said that Rome, unlike other big Italian cities to the North, is made up of distinct neighborhoods that are very different but are harmonized next to, and inside and around, each other. “Like those stacking Russian dolls,” she said. “Everybody tolerates each other and no one judges you for being eccentric.”
However, she wants to leave Italy. She said she is seventy, so she can’t risk losing her life savings, but she’d like to sell her place in Rome and go live in a house in Asia (“I love their philosophy,” she said) or Costa Rica. She said that Italian taxes and giant fees for everything are eating away at her savings and she cannot afford basic things. She also said to me, “Know that if you stay here, fifty percent of your time will be taken up by bureaucracy, waiting in lines, getting moved around. The other fifty percent will be for everything else in life, your family, your job, everything else you must squeeze into the fifty percent that you are not waiting in lines in government buildings.” Advice? Or a curse?
I got to the last chair in the circle, then was called into a room. There were about ten uniformed people, but not police officers, sitting at fingerprinting stations in a white room that reminded me of the giant TV room in the Willy Wonka movie. They all had immigrants in front of them, trying to overcome language barriers by screaming. I sat down with one man, who immediately started flirting mercilessly including asking if I had a boyfriend, and if so, whether he were ugly. Mariantoinetta came in after me with her friend, and we said “Ciao,” and then the man taking my fingerprints made a genuinely funny joke: “See? That’s why we make you wait in line for so long, so you’ll make friends!” I responded, “I get it, it’s a psychological experiment.” Somehow the whole room heard me and everyone guffawed.
Fingerprints done! “Now what happens,” I asked. The man joked that he was going to personally deliver my permesso to my house and to get ready. We laughed. No, he said, in forty days, I must go to a different post office than the one I had gone to before, and “check and see” if the permesso is ready. Do I have to go in person? Yes. No guarantee it will be ready then? Correct.
When that happens, it will be my fourth day devoted to getting this document that, I insist, could have been procured via mail. In fact, the fingerprints – why weren’t they taken at the time I dropped off the paperwork at the post office back in September? If the answer is, “because the post office cannot take fingerprints,” then I say either: “If they can accept the permesso kits they can take fingerprints” OR “Then we should drop off the kits at the police station and do them at the same time there.” Then, they should mail us the permesso, just like my visa was mailed back in the States. Dear Italian government, if you’d like any more suggestions, email me at liz@lizinrome.com – I’m full of ’em.
Mariantoinetta, her friend, and I walked out together. She really wanted to give me a ride home. She was going in the exact opposite direction as I was and it did not make sense. We hugged goodbye, and I told her I bet I would run into her again somewhere. She narrowed her eyes and said, “I think so, too.”
The epilogue to this immigration saga is that after I said goodbye to Mariantoinetta, I trotted down the road to wait for the bus to take me to the nearest subway stop and then, home. The bus stop was on the edge of a gypsy compound. It reeked of garbage and human waste. It looked like the third world; impossible to believe this is Italy. The bus came, and a gypsy mother about my age was struggling to get on with her four children, one in a stroller. I lifted the stroller for her. She did not say thank you or acknowledge me. Then, in the bus, her two twin daughters, age about 6, attempted to spit on me for fifteen minutes straight. The mother saw this but said nothing. The children were filthy with knots in their hair, and one of the girls already had rotten teeth. I ached for them. I felt anger towards their mother, who, although living across the street from the Rome’s central immigration office, has never and will never go through the process that Mariantoinetta’s friend, the cutting-in-line girl, the sobbing Chinese lady, the sleeping-while-standing dude, and I, all took the trouble and expense to go through.
We’ll see 37 days if my permesso is ready when I take another day out of my life to go “check.”
I’m curious – have any of you had your own similar or dissimilar experiences with (legal) immigration in other countries? I mean once you *already* have your visa, must you devote days and days to line to get another document, or is the visa the golden ticket? And if you’re an expat elsewhere in Italy, is it just as chaotic and time-consuming where you are? Leave me a comment below.
Hi Liz, a tragic story, well-told. I recently posted a similar story on my blog–not as detailed as yours, but with the same sense of frustration. By the way, I tried the same approach as you, once upon a time. It was about two years ago, so the details are a bit fuzzy. But I clearly remember the feeling of hopelessness among the throngs of immigrants. I didn’t stick around too long that day and instead decided to pursue the Permesso through the mail. I’m not sure if it was a good decision or not–it took seven months before I actually had the document in hand. And then guess what? I lost it a month later and had to go back to square one. Uffa!
Anyway, great post! I look forward to keeping up with your blog.
Ciao,
Rick
Madonna, Rick. Thanks for sharing. I don’t think mail is available at all anymore! I was told this was the only way. When I lived here from 2001-05, it was a whole different process – no kits, no post office, and everything was done at my local police station down the street. It changes all the time…uffa. Thank you so much for reading. I’m enjoying writing it!
Ciao!! Liz
Great post, I will repost. As for me, it was very easy. I live in a small town, firstly. I broght in my papers and in fifteen minutes I got my permesso and residence. In the States, when my husband was getting a Green Card it was a NIGHTMARE. We had to hire a lawyer and it all costed about $3000 and a nightmare of bureaucracy. It took about 3 months, and the green card was for 2 years only. Here I paid nothing and my permesso is for 15 years. Of course i the States we lived in San Diego, a border town, so it was bound to be busy. If you had an appoint at 10am you had to line up by 5am. Out of control, people cutting, smoking, etc. So it is not just Italy. My mom lives in the states, has for about 50 years and still has to do the nightmare every 5 years despite owning a busy and being a legal resident.
Thank you for this Reply! I have been wondering what it’s like in the States for legal immigrants there, in addition to extra-EU folks who go to other countries in Europe (I hear it’s a piece of cake for an American to go to Germany, for example). This is simply the only place I’ve had experience with personally. I can think of about 10 ways that the permesso process in Rome could be easier and take less time, and I bet your husband and mom can think of a bunch of ways to streamline it in the States as well. I can’t tell you how many people in the States have assumed I can, as an American, just waltz into Italy like I own the place and live in a postcard. So I am just glad to show that it’s not like that. Thank you for reading, Bella!
Ciao,
Liz
Also I wonder if the process is more or less normal worldwide but as Americans we have this attitude like we should be able to walk in anywhere and own the place? I have done this in 4 countries now and they are all more or less the same. I guess we just can’t believe we have to do it, afterall, we are American.
Totally. I wrote this post with my American friends in mind who seemed to be very surprised that I had to do anything to move to Italy other than buying a one-way ticket. My Canadian friend says her Canadian friends don’t understand why she can’t just move to New York to pursue acting just because she wants to. They’re not dumb, they’ve just never thought about it before, and movies like Under the Tuscan Sun and Eat, Pray, Love just gloss over those pesky details (and make me crazy)!
Actually, buying property here makes the process a lot easier.
Also, when you get your interview in the USA they ask all sorts of personal information, incluing sexual questions, what brand of tampons, etc. Also you have to swear you’ve never been a communist.
Wha-wha-whaaaa??? I knew about the communist thing, but brand of tampons? Here, if they did ask such a question, it would be “brand of pads,” amiright? 🙂
Ha! I never thought about it as I see both pads and tampons at the stores
HAHA – they have both, but it’s a reverse ratio to that in the States. Also note which you see commercials for on TV.
very interesting post, very well done. I really enjoyed reading your experience on this really-not-fun process. I too have written about it in my blog and have somehow managed to get a work visa via blood, sweat and tears. After mind you, many people told me to ‘just get married’ or ‘pregnant’ (um no) with my Italian boyfriend. In fact, when people write me about wanting to live in Italy, I often send them links to posts like this one so they can gain some perspective on the battle to stay here legally. I too have met countless illegal immigrants, and I would never recommend this to anyone. Who wants to live life scared everytime a policeman brandishes a lollipop stop sign or having to choose a flight home by means of which country won’t ask questions, or better yet get paid only in cash. I personally want to contribute to society and pay my taxes.
My father happens to work for homeland security in the USA specifically Immigration. I can say the process that we put immigrants through in our home country is far harder than even my insane story here. I can’t even tell you how many crazy stories he has regaled us in the past, my mom an immigrant herself took 12 years to get her greencard. In fact, whenever i get too pissed off here, I try and think about these things, at least I have a pretty good country to go back to if I couldn’t stay here. That certainly isn’t the case for everyone. and yes the above poster was right about questions – they even ask you what kind of shampoo your spouse uses, no joke!
I could go on and on. I would not want to be here without a permesso either. Going through the airports would make me a nervous wreck. I’m also “glad” to know, in a way, that it’s hard everywhere. But actually, in the States, when I’ve heard people talk about how hard it is to immigrate there, I’ve talked about Italy and said “Look, it’s hard to immigrate everywhere.” Indeed, Italian friends here are shocked that I can’t just waltz into Italy. They say it’s so hard to go to America, and get a greencard, and I’m like, “what do you think I have to do to come here?” No one has any idea. ANYWAY. Thanks so much for the compliments – you’re so kind! I’m enjoying writing these, and it’s surreal to think that strangers are reading. I appreciate it more than you know!
I personally consider myself a medical refugee in Italy and it is essential for my health and life that I am able to live here as I have so much medical debt in the States I would never be able to live there again. COuldn’t buy a house, rent an apartment, buy a car or return to school. SOOOOO much debt, like $150,000. I would stand in line for 10 hours in Italy if it meant I could use the world class heath care system here. In the states my care was often mediocre at best and they have a habit of getting people addicted to pain pills.
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Ack! This story makes me feel depressed. I appreciate the honest information don’t get me wrong. But, I would like to live in Italy too, and I can not figure out how because as you pointed out, not married to an Italian, not rich, and don’t have a sponsor at the moment. The one bright spot, perhaps if I’m not trying to get a permesso in Rome (when the time comes) it will be slightly less chaotic?! Oh and I don’t speak fluent Italian – yet. 🙂
Happy to find your blog. p.s. I’m from Dallas, and I totally get what you meant when you said, “tolerable.” not ok!
Hi Penny! Yes, it’s depressing. As Americans they put us in the same boat as everyone from outside the EU — and they are really strict about keeping extra-EU citizens OUT. Going through the process outside of Rome may be less chaotic, but the flip side is that they will also have fewer personnel, etc. Not sure which is better! Thanks so much for reading my blog and I sincerely wish you luck. I guess where there’s a will there’s a way? Please let me know how it goes for you!
Oh, Liz! I feel for you. Jessica and I have both had to endure the process and I plan to devote my next post to my experience. I can tell you that, despite having “independent means,” the process of getting our “residenza elettiva” visas was far more dramatic than it should have been. Good luck getting your permesso renewed. I hope it goes smoothly.
When we get together you must tell me WHAT the threshold is for the elective residency. I could not find this info anywhere, which I’m sure is on purpose. Finally, someone who knows!! Thanks for reading and commenting, Scott!
Liz, this post brings back memories! The journey to that building was a unique experience for sure. It breaks my heart to see how the gypsy culture is isolated from the rest of society…it only makes the problem worse…but what can we do. It really is third world in some areas, but not many people would know or think that who haven’t experienced living there. Despite that somber note, I wish you the best in Rome, it is such a special place!